Calvinists and "Five-Pointers" who believe in God's arbitrary election regarding those who could possibly be saved are big on His Sovereignty. They don't want to limit God in any way...except for the saving power of the shed blood of His Son, Jesus Christ.If there was one area I wouldn't limit God, that would be it.
1 John 2:2, "And he is the propitation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
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Hello,
I just happened across your blog and I am looking forward to reading more of your posts. I am not as familiar with Calvinism as I would like to be, so I am always looking for someone to "dumb it down" for me. I appreciate what you have written and thank you for putting in language a layman like me can understand.
Hey my dear brother. Thanks for your response to my post.
Could I kindly have you explain the verse you quoted for me?
Are you suggesting that Christ propitiated for/made atonement for someoen who is in hell?
To me, that verse is the last verse you should ever use from your standpoint, because, again, regardless of your position on the "l" pf TULIP, that verse CANNOT possible mean what you are implying here that it means.
If Christ Propitiated/atoned for someone's sin, that person is justified. Period. For that person to be in hell, after propitiation/atonement for there sins was made by a holy and spotless sacrifice, God would be unjust and the propitiation would have been made in vain.
There are stronger verses for you to use, this one clearly cannot mean what you imply it means. A simple study of the word propitiation would make that abundantly clear. I'm sure you are aware that contextually there are strong arguments that clearly explain the meaning of this verse. I'll throw it back to you, though...
Did Christ propitiate for the sins of someone who is still sent to hell. If the answer is yes, then my question is... why are they in hell?
Tony,
I didn't imply anything. I meant what I said. I said that a five-point Calvinist wants to limit the "saving (atoning) power of the shed blood of [God's] Son, Jesus Christ."
The blood of Jesus has full power to atone for the sin of any person who has or ever will live. That power is only applied when the individual is saved by grace through faith.
To say that Christ's blood IS the atonement and that it HAS atoned any given individual are two totally separate ideas.
To me the verse CANNOT mean what you are implying it to mean. If Christ's blood does not have atoning power, why is anyone in Heaven?
I know that question sounds ridiculous to you...about as ridiculous as your question sounded to me.
Chris,
As one who doesn't hold to Limited Atonement, I understand where you're coming from. The Calvinist sees the work of Christ as not only the atonement, but also the application of the atonement when Jesus died.
If they are right about that, then people are born justified and don't need faith to be saved, because they have already been propitiated and atoned for.
I don't know if you read the post I did a couple weeks back about atonement, but I was feebly trying to illustrate to Calvinists that Christ's atoning sacrifice is powerful enough to save countless numbers of people.
Now if you want to talk about intention, that's another story. If God intended it to cover the sins of all men without exception, and one man doesn't get saved, God failed. So, in that sense, I see the intention of the atonement to be for all men without distinction not all men without exception.
Its hard to understand how Calvin could not understand "But as many as 'received' Him, He gave the right to become children of God, to those who 'believe' in His name" John 1:12.
Calvin sounds very pious in saying the depravity of man is so great that, man cannot even believe the Gospel until he is 'made' to believe. This is 'limiting' the awesome statement revealed on the cross, Gods atonement is thus limited when we say the cross wasnt good enough to reveal both our condition, the love and the wrath of God all in one act. I believe the Holy Spirit enlightens the mind to the word of God, but God still leaves the choice up to each of us to decide for himself, otherwise repentance would mean nothing. This life is a test, Exod.15:25. 16:4,20:20, Duet.13:3. And it is a choice; Exod.35:5,22, Lev.22:18, Duet.30:19. What I am talking about here is not the 'L' in Tulip as much as the T, yet your statement about how Calvin's theology actually limits God, made me think of how Calvinism 'limits' the power of Gods love on the cross to pierce even the darkest depraved heart, if man is simply made to believe, then the Gospel message is meaningless. People reject the message of the cross being fully aware of what it means, that is their choice, "for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved", and God knows if a person is sincere or not, for God is not mocked. Anyway I think your blog is right on.
Thanks for your input Zeloslogos. I appreciate your readership. It's kinda funny, the more I hear the arguments from the Calvinist position, the less I believe it. Oh well. We'll all figure everything out one day.
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