I think I've come to a conclusion about an issue that really isn't important. (Aren't Baptists really good at that?) Every now and then I hear or read about somebody criticizing someone else because that someone else "only cares about numbers." Usually they're talking about a pastor or ministry that has expressed some kind of passion for reaching more people with the Gospel or growing numerically. I've heard it said about such men as Paul Chappell or Jack Schaap. Dr. Schaap just released a very compelling book called Where are We Going? In a nutshell, the book chronicles the decline of fundamental Baptist influence in America over the last 30 years. This is the kind of book that draws the criticism I'm talking about here.
Here's my take: I think criticism about this issue is pointless and ignorant. Is the ministry all about numbers? More people in the pews? More people saved and baptized? Of course not. However, I don't think that emphasizing numerical growth is unbiblical or carnal. It can be, but we can't judge another man's heart in that respect.
Jesus did say to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." 1 Peter 3:9 tells us that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God "will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." There are over 6 billion people on planet earth. God wants every one of them to be saved. Why is it wrong for us to emphasize greater numbers when God doesn't want us to miss even one?
Of course, a Calvinist or one who believes in sovereign election will have a hard time with this. I don't believe in arbitrary election by God regarding who will be saved and who won't...but that's for another post.
If numbers are your god or your measure for success in life and ministry, then there's a problem. However, there is nothing wrong with having and expressing a passion to reach more people with the message of the Gospel. God Himself has given us a numerical goal...the whole world!
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12 comments:
Wonderful post brother!
Keep it up!!!!!
I hope you have a great Sunday and blessed week.
In Him,
Kinney Mabry
Aka,
Preacherman :-)
I was listening to a Paul Chappell leadership CD last month, and I liked what he said about counting numbers: "we don't count how many people have been saved, but we will count how many people we've witnessed to or how many doors we've knocked on."
He explained, that the salvation of a person's soul is God's part and He can't count those, our part is the witnessing and we can count those. When people like Jack Schaap count how many salvations they had on a given weekend, the truth is, they have no idea how many have been saved because they can't look into a person's soul and see regeneration occurring. The other reason I believe they have no idea how many are truly saved, is because their message of the gospel is so watered down, that anybody who will agree to four points and a prayer is considered saved.
During the Great Awakening, even Jonathan Edwards did not count professed conversions. He knew, like Jesus, that many would follow for a little while and then fall away because they were not true believers. In one incident, Edwards was preaching to some teenagers and all of them were moved to the point of tears, yet he did not press for a visible decision, lest he should cause them to make an emotional outward decision without a real change of heart. He did not know if their sorrow was a godly sorrow that leads to repentance or a worldly kind. He let God bring them to the point of salvation, not any pressure of his own.
As for those who believe in election, we have no problem with those verses that you quoted. Unlike a 5pointer Calvie, I do not have a problem with a humanly logical disconnect between the general call to all to be saved and the individual choosing of salvation. God said both, therefore they're both true.....that is for a separate post however.
Oh ya, I would also like to read what Schaap says in that book about Fundamental Baptists losing influence. I think that alot of it had to do with his father in law. The false teachings and scripture twisting has a lot to do with it i'm sure.
Hi Will...thanks for your thoughts on this.
I completely agree with the notion that we don't really know how many people get saved. That is a count that only God knows. We only get a hint by seeing the fruit that comes from their life later. Even that can possibly mislead.
As far as your comments on Edwards, Hyles and Schaap, I think that's a different issue. Certainly a debate could be held on the things you mention and many would agree with you.
I think a passion for "numbers" comes from your philosophy of ministry. The point of this post is that a passion for numbers is not wrong in and of itself. Why you have that passion could be wrong. How you try to see that passion come to fruition could also be wrong. I think Rick Warren has a passion for "numbers," but I believe his philosophy of ministry he exercises to reach those numbers is wrong.
Some of those other issues truly are for another post. :)
"The point of this post is that a passion for numbers is not wrong in and of itself. Why you have that passion could be wrong. How you try to see that passion come to fruition could also be wrong."
Amen. The passion for great numbers of people to be saved is certainly good; what's motivating it and how to go about it is another thing. I'd rather not use the kind of methods that are known to bring about false conversions. Although a few will genuinely get saved through those methods, it doesn't justify using them. As one who believes in election, I believe that if I use the right God centered methods, those few would still get saved. If i am a lazy good for nothing hyper calvinist, someone else will lead them to Christ and I will get judged by God for it! :)
Will,
I guess you're the kind of Calvinist I can handle. :)
Like I said, some of the issues you brought up represent the greater part of an individuals philosophy of ministry. Whether or not someone has passion for "numbers" is certainly part of their ministry philosophy. This post was meant only to express my opinion on the criticism of that passion. God bless!
Well said ... no matter what church you are with!
Chris said:
"Of course, a Calvinist or one who believes in sovereign election will have a hard time with this. I don't believe in arbitrary election by God regarding who will be saved and who won't...but that's for another post."
Calvinists don't have a "hard time" with trying to reach as many people as we can. We just believe that God uses our labors as the means by which He brings about His sovereign will.
Many Baptist Calvinists have been some of history's greatest soul winners and missionaries (e.g. Spurgeon, Adoniram Judson, Isaac McCoy, and many others).
I believe Will would characterize me as a "5pointer Calvie", but I do believe in issuing the general call for all to be saved. So did Spurgeon was was a 5pointer Calvie. Man does not know who the elect are...but there out there somewhere. So let's go find them!
The problem with focusing on numbers is that if it's not subservient to our focus on glorifying God, then it will inevitably degenerate into pride-driven methods of numbers manufacturing.
FWIW, I like Chappell's view on numbers. I didn't know this about him. (Will, what is this "leadership" CD?)
reglerjoe,
Thanks for reading and commenting. I did say, "Of course, a Calvinist or one who believes in sovereign election will have a hard time with this." I don't think I was clear enough about what I meant by "this." I mean that a Calvinist will have a hard time viewing the verses I quoted immediately prior the way I do.
I guess I do have a hard time seeing how a Calvinist could get excited about "more" people being saved when they believe that number is predetermined.
Also, keep in mind that I never said that "numbers" should be our "focus." I said that it can be an emphasis. It can be something we express a passion for. Glorifying God and doing His will should always be our focus.
Hey Reglrjoe,
The leadership CD i was listening was "A Biblical Strategy for Reaching Your Community" I think.
The link to that one is here:
http://www.strivingtogether.com/A-Biblical-Strategy-for-Reaching-Your-Community-P111C99.aspx
I also ordered the "Casting Vision" Cd,so it might be on that one. I don't remember
baptist man,
I'm new to your blog and was curious to see you jump into a string of people posting about the effectiveness of their congregations and sling a doctrinal hand grenade onto the page.
Trey..."conversions" don't come from baptizing anyone.
Is this out of love that you do this? Is this in effort to make a convert? Is it simply just a way to push a few people’s buttons? I apologies for using this forum to ask this question, I was suffering significantly due to the conversation we were having about becoming more effective when you pitched this argument. I would (and will) be willing to converse with you about every mention of salvation, baptism, faith, belief as well as any other verse you would like to discuss provided we can do so in love and with open minds. I think there are many verses on both sides (for whatever reason) leave out. I am mostly concerned with obedience and am really not willing to leave out anything that God requires; especially not a non-judgmental, loving spirit. I was sad at the topic of the blog and saddened further by your cavalier, broad brushed slap in our collective faces. Please correct me if I am in error about the intentions of your comment on his blog.
Tom
Tom,
First of all, thank you for your desire for a peaceful and meaningful conversation. I know my statement on the comment page for Trey's post was a little blunt. The truth is, he and I have discussed that issue before and I thought he told me that baptism doesn't convert or give eternal life. After reading the statement on his post, I had my doubts about that.
I believe that salvation or "conversion" comes only through faith in the finished work of Christ. The teaching that baptism gives a person eternal life is a false doctrine. Faith in Christ saves...and that alone.
I didn't mean to throw a hand grenade into the conversation. I was hoping to get further clarification on the matter from Trey.
Let me know if you have any other questions. God bless!
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